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 Post subject: Site Database/Redesign and Rule #6 Modification
PostPosted: April 16th, 2008, 5:28 pm 
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Just a few announcements:

Well I have so far failed with getting the site switched over to its new database format. I have found it rather impossible between school, reviews, and life in general. So my plan is to hammer it out over the summer, which is coming up in less than a week for me. That should give me ample free time to beast through all the database review uploading, and once I get that whole system hammered out, I will look into getting the site redesigned.

Now for the rule modification, I am revising rule #6:
"Animetric does not "support" illegal activity. The Animetric forum will not be used as a facilitation device for people to find illegal materials. As such, while you may discuss Anime, Manga, ect. that has not yet been licensed in the US yet, please do not link to fansub/scanlation/torrent websites."

Given that basically everyone uses fansubs nowadays, and as such everyone already knows where to look, I am going to change the rule to allow for linking to unlicensed materials, but there will still be a ban on linking to materials that have already been licensed in the US. (Even though a number of you do not reside in the States, given my local this is the best gauge I can use.)

Henceforth Rule 6 will read:

Animetric does not support downloading/illegally acquiring materials that have already been licensed in the United States. This can be through either torrents, streaming sites, or such file download sites as Rapidshare, etc. Specifically linking to such licensed materials will not be allowed. (This does not mean you can't link to such sites, just not directly to and/or to aid in the search of licensed materials) However, Animetric does recognize the usefulness and possible positive aspects that fansubs and fan-translations can have in promoting certain materials before they are licensed in the US (if people would actually buy the materials they have already seen/read when it's licensed). It also recognizes that some titles have little to no chance of being licensed anywhere outside of Japan, and thus such illegal methods are the only way in which one can acquire such materials. As such, linking to materials that have not been licensed in the US will be allowed, and of course all discussion of such items is fine.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: April 16th, 2008, 9:34 pm 
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What if a title gets licensed? Someone would have to go and find whatever links have been posted here. If this site ever did get popular, I'd imagine that would be hard to keep track of.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: April 16th, 2008, 11:27 pm 
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It may get tough to keep track of, especially if the forum gets sufficiently larger, but I will tackle that when we get there. For the moment it shouldn't be too difficult for me to remember or search for titles that have been recently licensed to see if there are links for them. (And to be honest, if the links are in sufficiently dead topics, I'm not that concerned about it really.)

I mean, for the most part, people know where to find fansubs at. This is more for helping to find titles which are rather elusive and for the coming age of legal anime torrents/streams from companies, at least in terms of anime titles. But I am really opening the door here for doujinshi/h-doujins, and other such items which will likely never see the light of day over here, but were previously banned from being posted on the forum.

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Last edited by Acmurphy on April 17th, 2008, 9:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: April 17th, 2008, 4:21 am 
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I disagree on the change on grounds of Berne Convention.

"Just because everybody is doing it, it does not mean it's right"

'nough said

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PostPosted: April 17th, 2008, 9:42 am 
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Caiobrz wrote:
I disagree on the change on grounds of Berne Convention.

"Just because everybody is doing it, it does not mean it's right"

When the companies start moving to torrent and streaming sites to distribute their titles, it's time for me to change as well.

Hell, we've already had discussions on/links to fansub streaming sites (Crunchyroll) and 42317's fan-translations of H-Doujins. It's not like things are changing that much from before.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: April 17th, 2008, 4:15 pm 
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Acmurphy wrote:
Caiobrz wrote:
I disagree on the change on grounds of Berne Convention.

"Just because everybody is doing it, it does not mean it's right"

When the companies start moving to torrent and streaming sites to distribute their titles, it's time for me to change as well.

Hell, we've already had discussions on/links to fansub streaming sites (Crunchyroll) and 42317's fan-translations of H-Doujins. It's not like things are changing that much from before.

Agreed. "Just because everybody is doing it, it does not mean it's right" is a fair thought... The problem with it is what I believe to Acmurphy's point. I mean, I've seen companies that license post titles on iTunes (I've even bought some of what they have up); I'd assume they wouldn't be able to if it wasn't okay with whoever the titles are being licensed from to do it. The question I'm putting forward, Caiobrz, is what if the companies that make these titles are behind their release as downloads (if not directly posting themselves, then supporting those that do)? Does that not count as being right?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: April 17th, 2008, 6:57 pm 
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The new rule reads good, it's more detailed.
Still I think maybe we should come to a gentlemen's agreement not to post any download links, except for such offered by official distributors.

By the way, why did you change the text? As I said it was a good idea, but was there any trouble lately?

Mmsven wrote:
What if a title gets licensed? Someone would have to go and find whatever links have been posted here.

My thoughts. Moderators must constantly be on the lookout in order to keep track of the links and disable newly illegal links, and that's why we, imho, should keep away from any linking of that sort. First, it saves work, and second, everybody who wants downloads will sooner or later learn where to get them anyway, even without our official assistance.
Let's keep it clean. At least on the public surface. On the other hand, if someone feels like sharing (or asking for) such information with any member he can do it via PM, with a big, fat stress on "private".
"Below the surface", so to speak.
Like in the US armed forces: Don't ask, don't tell, and nobody will end up in trouble.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: April 17th, 2008, 7:37 pm 
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42317 wrote:
The new rule reads good, it's more detailed.
Still I think maybe we should come to a gentlemen's agreement not to post any download links, except for such offered by official distributors.

I'd agree to this. The stuff I download (all of which I'm positive I've admitted to at least a little bit) fall under this anyway...

42317 wrote:
By the way, why did you change the text? As I said it was a good idea, but was there any trouble lately?

I don't think there was any specific trouble. It's just been such a hot topic over in the Anime News thread lately that it might have just seemed right to update the rule.


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PostPosted: April 17th, 2008, 9:17 pm 
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Quote:
The question I'm putting forward, Caiobrz, is what if the companies that make these titles are behind their release as downloads (if not directly posting themselves, then supporting those that do)? Does that not count as being right?


That illusion is good, keep good care of it :roll: any fansuber will tell you wrong though.

Quote:
The new rule reads good, it's more detailed.
Still I think maybe we should come to a gentlemen's agreement not to post any download links, except for such offered by official distributors.


Agreed

I would pretty much L-O-V-E to hear the T-R-U-E reason behind the rule changing, just to meddle with sensible subjects :lol: like ... you could bump the site popularity A LOT by that little change :roll: Look at A-suki and you will know what I mean

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: April 18th, 2008, 10:48 am 
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As I have already said, I doubt the fansub aspect of this is really going to go anywhere. Even the one-time posters who don't read the rules have rarely asked where to download something at. (I think it has happened twice, and I think each time they were looking for US licensed hentai titles). It's not something that people typically need, they are rather easy to find. That is why this will mainly open the doors for H-doujins and other such items, like bishoujo games that are either in Japanese or have been fan-translated and their respective walkthroughs/save data, etc. Items which are typically harder to find as they have a much smaller release size and distribution level.

And I guess it may bring in more members. I mean, there are a ton of sites out there that have hordes of links to torrents and databases full of such items, like hongfire and akiba-online, so I doubt people will be flocking here when they could, much more easily, look or ask there.
42317 wrote:
By the way, why did you change the text? As I said it was a good idea, but was there any trouble lately?

What type of trouble are you referring to? No I haven't had any trouble with any companies or anything like that, if that's what you're talking about. (If that's not it you'll have to clarify, but on the whole I haven't had any problems)

When I first took over Animetric, my plan was to have the forum with rule 6 as it stands now. However, at the time AD35 talked me into having the forum as torrent/fansub/anything considered illegal free, much like the AnimeNewsNetwork forum. And that worked fine for the past year. Now with the coming migration of companies to such methods, and GDH using a fansub streaming website to distribute their titles online told me it was time to go ahead and modify the rule.

42317 wrote:
Let's keep it clean. At least on the public surface. On the other hand, if someone feels like sharing (or asking for) such information with any member he can do it via PM, with a big, fat stress on "private".

Sure, we could do something like that for fansubs, at least at this point in time anyway. We'll leave the other stuff to be posted as people would like, much the same as the h-doujins you translated before.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: April 18th, 2008, 12:57 pm 
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It's a good change, though I personally find no point in linking directly to any fansub sites or material since it's easy enough to find them using google.

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PostPosted: April 19th, 2008, 2:13 am 
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Now with the coming migration of companies to such methods, and GDH using a fansub streaming website to distribute their titles online told me it was time to go ahead and modify the rule.


Wait a second. Just because ONE company decided to distribute their material online using legal ways, all of the sudden ILLEGAL torrent/download sites are OK? Sorry, can't see the line.

As the rule is, you can still link to Crunchyroll site with no legal issue since GDH has openly used it as such (and even link to that side from gonzo's site), since as my knowledge goes, rule 6 ruled out only illegal downloads. ANN is still dead strict about that, you can't even link for WALLPAPER sites because they use imagery from studios and that is, on their view, illegal (do-oh) and they don't accept fair-use policies (I personally E-mailed ADV about the issue and they mailed me back stating they do not find wallpaper sites which use their artwork/scans illegal since they DO fall into fair-use ... ya did that because I didn't want trouble in my site), and ANN naturally link and give a lot of space for Crunchyroll, BossTV, Youtube and other LEGAL services.

Thus I see no need to change it.

The fact you never got any problem with rule 6 is that rule 6 states exactly what all companies want you to do. Thus that's why you never got in trouble. All sites that have illegal downloads had troubles somewhere down the road - I DO MEAN ALL - and ones chose to get to the legal aspect (like Animesuki, which does not link to licensed materials), which is something in between, and others ... got to servers outside US or even better outside Berne's jurisdiction where not even Japanese companies can get them down (and even some of those got in trouble with ADV and had to make some deal like "we offer everything illegal except ADV")

If you use alexia services you will find that animetric is marginally noticiable comparing to any download index such as A-suki, so if you change rule 6, nobody (companies) will notice. But as the site grows popular, they sure will.

You start linking illegal stuff, I don't see problems while the site is small, but if it starts to get big, you WILL get into problem, and usually that is sudden and unexpected - and you will have to either reset the forum or go thread by thread removing links if that happens, lots of problem just because you wanted to get borderline illegal IMHO for what reason again?

I still think 42317 words make a lot more sense. "everybody knows, so why risk?"

Your call, and I get you made this thread to get opinions. I sense trouble in the future if you change the rule, seriously, no site that get big can live with this new rule ... but if you don't care using it to try and increase the site movement until that happens, I think that's ok. And yes, there would be a big increase in movement if you did that. Look A-suki, it's just a database of non-licensed downloads and a forum, and it's like 1000 times larger than Animetric. Can you imagine if they had not only the links but as well reviews? =p

p.s.:
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What if a title gets licensed? Someone would have to go and find whatever links have been posted here. If this site ever did get popular, I'd imagine that would be hard to keep track of.


A-suki has a daily updated list of licensed titles.

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PostPosted: April 19th, 2008, 12:07 pm 
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Caiobrz wrote:
Wait a second. Just because ONE company decided to distribute their material online using legal ways, all of the sudden ILLEGAL torrent/download sites are OK? Sorry, can't see the line.

GDH is not the only company that has used such methods, ADV has released a couple episodes as torrents before.

And yes, GDH's release of Blassreiter and Druaga on Crunchyroll is legal, but that does not change the fact that the site they used is completely and utterly filled with illegal content. But their use of them gives credence to the fact that they have accepted them, at least to a point, since they are using rather than suing.

And no, it hasn't made it suddenly legal or something, but I already explained that this is how I wanted the rule setup in the first place, so it was going to change at some point. Fansubs are never going to be legal, so I'm not going to sit around waiting into infinity to change the rule. This coming migration, as I said before and which I think we can all agree is coming, gives me enough of a stepping stone to change the rule, even though no legality has actually changed.

I mean, it's not like we all don't download fansubs anyway. The illegality there hasn't stopped us.

Caiobrz wrote:
As the rule is, you can still link to Crunchyroll site with no legal issue since GDH has openly used it as such (and even link to that side from gonzo's site), since as my knowledge goes, rule 6 ruled out only illegal downloads. ANN is still dead strict about that, you can't even link for WALLPAPER sites because they use imagery from studios and that is, on their view, illegal (do-oh) and they don't accept fair-use policies (I personally E-mailed ADV about the issue and they mailed me back stating they do not find wallpaper sites which use their artwork/scans illegal since they DO fall into fair-use ... ya did that because I didn't want trouble in my site), and ANN naturally link and give a lot of space for Crunchyroll, BossTV, Youtube and other LEGAL services.

Thus I see no need to change it.

While I thank you for using a site such as ANN for a comparison, it's a much larger website with a much more visible and monitored website than Animetric, with actual ties to companies. Their user base and traffic amounts are large enough to actually warrant companies telling them not to do it, if they were. But even then, that's about all they do. There are thousands of anime streaming sites which use Veoh and other such services to stream licensed and unlicensed episodes on their sites. If anything, these are the people, and the torrent sites, they would have problems with.

Crunchyroll is not legal, only those two episodes on it are currently legal releases. And as rule six was previously stated, it would not allow linking to sites which contain illegal content, which a site such as Crunchyroll still has.

Caiobrz wrote:
The fact you never got any problem with rule 6 is that rule 6 states exactly what all companies want you to do. Thus that's why you never got in trouble. All sites that have illegal downloads had troubles somewhere down the road - I DO MEAN ALL - and ones chose to get to the legal aspect (like Animesuki, which does not link to licensed materials), which is something in between, and others ... got to servers outside US or even better outside Berne's jurisdiction where not even Japanese companies can get them down (and even some of those got in trouble with ADV and had to make some deal like "we offer everything illegal except ADV")

This is true, which is why I didn't have any idea where 42317 was going with his question, since it was basically the same stance as ANN.

If a company does contact me with a problem though, I can always revert back or simply not allow posting of their content. Like the others have done.

But as I have said before, I highly doubt anyone is going to need help finding fansubs, I'm just leaving it open in case someone does. This is primarily for doujin content, something which we already have on the site anyway, I'm just making it OK in the rules, and allowing for linking to it on such bittorrent/file sharing rather than having to post each picture individually.

Caiobrz wrote:
If you use alexia services you will find that animetric is marginally noticiable comparing to any download index such as A-suki, so if you change rule 6, nobody (companies) will notice. But as the site grows popular, they sure will.

Do you mean Alexa? And yes, I realize that Animetric is not invisible and does have fairly high traffic. However, there are so much larger sites out there that host, link to, and exchange illegal content that I don't see them coming after my site when they have much bigger fish to fry. Especially since we don't have a focus on episodes, but doujins and games.

Caiobrz wrote:
You start linking illegal stuff, I don't see problems while the site is small, but if it starts to get big, you WILL get into problem, and usually that is sudden and unexpected - and you will have to either reset the forum or go thread by thread removing links if that happens, lots of problem just because you wanted to get borderline illegal IMHO for what reason again?

As I said, I'll cross that bridge if we ever get there.

Caiobrz wrote:
I still think 42317 words make a lot more sense. "everybody knows, so why risk?"

Because everyone does not know about h-doujins, which ones are good, which ones have the content they are looking for, etc. Sure, everyone knows about fansubs and where to get them, knows about the different series ad what they're about. But h-doujins are a whole nother game. You can't just go to ANN and search through all the h-doujins and read about the content and story for them. And the same can be said for game walkthroughs and save data, etc. They are a much smaller group, which much less information and release sizes.

At any rate, there is far too much focus on the fansub side, which I have already agreed that any requests could simply be answered via PM, if anyone ever has one.

Caiobrz wrote:
Your call, and I get you made this thread to get opinions. I sense trouble in the future if you change the rule, seriously, no site that get big can live with this new rule ... but if you don't care using it to try and increase the site movement until that happens, I think that's ok. And yes, there would be a big increase in movement if you did that. Look A-suki, it's just a database of non-licensed downloads and a forum, and it's like 1000 times larger than Animetric. Can you imagine if they had not only the links but as well reviews? =p

Animesuki has basically the same stance this forum has now. And given their size, and the fact that they can still link to fansubs without a problem, I would imagine that we have a ways to go before we hit such a problem ourselves.

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PostPosted: April 19th, 2008, 8:53 pm 
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Well most of your post I agree yadda yadda, just a comment though:

Quote:
Animesuki has basically the same stance this forum has now. And given their size, and the fact that they can still link to fansubs without a problem, I would imagine that we have a ways to go before we hit such a problem ourselves.


Animesuki linked to all torrents, even illegal ones, at the begining. On day they got down because ADV and the likes got to their ISP. They than switched to only non-licensed titles. They were always a popular site because they linked to downloads, and they remain as the covert-ethics on "link only non-licensed" still means they can link to most things, specially new things (until they get licensed). What I mean is - they don't have a problem because they don't link "illegal" downloads (in the US), only "legal" (not licensed).

Other sites like now dead mircx linked to illegal and didn't want to make any deal with US companies, and thus moved to a new domain outside Berne-convention jurisdiction, and thus still remain with different names. They got down again later (they say it was a industry-driven DDoS attack which lasted almost a month) and moved again for a remote ISP with better protection (which is LOL ... a ISP which makes a living being safe so illegal sites can use it xD) and remain. The site in question have lots more movement than animesuki nowadays xD~

Thus I would hint you to go in this stance, which is somewhere between changing to "we allow any link" to "any non-licensed link". You avoid problems with most major studios, while still offering the possiblity to link h-doujinshi and even titles that were not licensed. I think that's the best cost/benefit instance.

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