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PostPosted: January 5th, 2008, 4:52 pm 
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The Adict wrote:
See I didn't think the girls had needlessly high pitched voices in Elfen Lied, they were about what I was expecting from a 12-14 year old girls. Which three of the female leads were. And they talked normal for people that have gone threw what they did. That is except the cousin, can't remember her name. I hated how she would go from soft to screaming with really nothing in between.

12-14 year old girls don't sound like that, man. No one sounds like that.

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PostPosted: January 6th, 2008, 12:37 am 
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Yeardley Smith from the Simpsons (Lisa Simpson) sounds like that. It's vaguely disturbing to hear her in commentary, because she's around her early 40s, is married, and still sounds like a nasally starfish haired little girl in actuality, not just in the sound booth.

And the majority of English dubbing is garbage for the simple reason of effort, too much or lack thereof. The delivery is often too deadpan, too emotional, too eager to emulate the original, too much and too little of everything. But then there are the English readings, like for Cowboy Bebop, that are just superb, because they took the characters, and instead of trying to impose some artificial pacing or sound to the voices, they tried their best to adapt real sounding voices that actually conveyed emotion while still sounding human.

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PostPosted: January 6th, 2008, 11:11 am 
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Don't forget Samurai X Trust and Betrayal in that list, the English Dub is actually better then the Japanese Dub. And there are a few others, I just can't think of them right now.

The I guess I'm stupid with girls, cause they sound exactly like that to me.

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PostPosted: February 18th, 2008, 3:17 am 
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AcMurphy wrote:
How many titles have you actually watched dubbed?


Only a few earlier when I did not download anime, so I had to watch the extremelly few (2~3) that aired on TV here (though I used to watch a lot of movies/series dubbed in Portuguese before I knew enough english to watch subbed - long time ago), and before anyone says I have no say on this because I have not watched enough of dubs, just keep in mind it's a question of logic: dubs cannot possible fit with the small lip sync the same conversation, so not only you have translation boundaries (which not even subs can sometimes cover, so you have Translation notes and the such in good quality subs), but even if you could come up with a proper translation, more often than not they are bigger/smaller than the lip sync requires, so a lot of improv goes on.

On top of the IMPOSSIBLE TO SOLVE problem of translation/lip sync issues which often make a dub have complete different lines than the original, and this is not a purist problem, you than have the problem of the hired dubbers in our cute western civilization being always children or doing children's voice - even for adult anime - because that's what most people think anime is all about - even some companies (one would say it's the case of Funimations).

If one can handle translation problems (some you won't notice, some you will just "not get it") and the annoying different voice patterns, which come all from logic (it's not something one can argue about, it's kind of obvious), only then we enter the "purists" problems, which are usually is the death blow: imperfect translations (even on subs, even in some fansubs!) deriving even more imperfect dubs, impossible lip sync issues, changing the personalities of the characters by changing original voice patterns, the list goes on.

So in a quick sumary: dubs are good for those who can't read fast enough, or those who don't wanna to. subs are good for those who want to watch it "as it was meant to be watched". To me it's just a matter of getting used to PAUSE to read it if it's too long a sentence (which never happens in dubs, a long sentence WILL be chomped down so it can fit the lip sync) or you can simply replay a scene if you want to see the imagery details you missed while reading - not a problem for those used with subs, which get confortable with a quick scan of the scene as they read the subs (enough to make you pause/go back a few seconds to rewatch, or go on).

Just to make a case in point, how can a dub get "itadakimasu" or "kawaii" right anyway? even subs will more often than not leave them as "itadakimasu" and "kawaii" because there is no way to "translate" it without removing it's value (the best fansubs add a TL explaining what these expressions are all about). In fact I have a stomach ache every time I read something like "graces" or "let's dig in" on the subs when characters say "itadakimasu" ... I would have a stroke if I heard it xD~

I think I have been writing too much and wondering too much, so I will add a final sumary of my points:

On dubs:
- Translations per se always loose some from the original content (Fact)
- Dubs need to fit the lip sync/time frame it can, so you have to chomp down some lines to fit them (in rare ocasions, you have to enlarge them to fill in the space) (Fact)
- Regardless of how good a dub is, you loose lip sync (Fact/Purist?)
- Some dubs twist and spoil a character with annoying or totally different voices that does not match the original intent of the voice (Fact - not all dubs / Purist?)

On dub vs sub:
- Dubs are o.k./good for those who can't read fast enough (Fact/Necessity)
- Subs are better for those who can read fast enough and got used to it (Fact/Personal choice)
- Most subs have issues (even in fansubs), and these issues are carried to the dubs and worsened by mentioned dub facts, thus more often than not dubs have less value than subs (Fact)

On translation:
- Some terms simply have no translation and should be left "as is", which is not possible in dubs (Fact - not purist because some are important)
- It's impossible to have a perfect translation even if you have all the time/space you had, so the max purism one could get is to learn japanese and screw subs/dubs =p

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PostPosted: February 18th, 2008, 6:08 pm 
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Caiobrz wrote:
translation problems

I think it's more a problem of translator quality, i.e. a matter of money.
The few Japanese live action movies that made it to my fatherland were dubbed pretty good. Here and there an expression seemed strange, but it wasn't bad and in every case better than the usual Anime translation.
The fact that Anime dubs usually suck is only seemingly a paradox - such series have less funding per minute than live action movies, thus they don't hire the upper third of the available translators.
I guess it's part of the notion that Anime is being watched only by uncritical kids anyway. :roll:

Caiobrz wrote:
how can a dub get "itadakimasu" or "kawaii" right anyway?

What's the problem with translating "kawaii" either as "cute" or "pretty"?
"Itadakimasu" is more difficult, yes, but it depends on the target language.
German and French for example have - how should I say? - a "pre-meal line" that goes "Guten Appetit" in German and "Bon appetit" in French. The connotation is different, but it's fitting. "Itadakimasu" is an expression of gratitude for receiving food - "graces" sounds odd, but it conveys the correct meaning. The German/French counterpart is more of a wish to have a healthy appetite since leaving something would offend the cook/housewife.
I don't know of comparable expressions in other languages, though.

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PostPosted: February 20th, 2008, 4:08 am 
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kawai was not a good example but you got the picture.

Guten Appetit, graces whatevver will never cover the multi-purpose and multi-meaning that itadakimasu has, I doubt english have a counterpart, I don't know any in portuguese, I don't think there is any in german: Itadakimasu get's almost literally in to "let's dig in" (which is the weakest but more literal translation), than you have the actual meaning for Guten Appetit, but than again it's not really that. Point is, it's a language expression unique to Japanese, with no real literal translation, so it will be lost in a dub - that's exactly why most subs leave it as "Itadakimasu" and give out a TL (or not even that, since let's be honest, after watching one anime you get what it means). I'm sure you can think of moments when "Itadakimasu" was used on ecchi scenes to jump in for the sex =p "graces"? LOOOOOOOL

Tadaima
Okaeri
Itekimasu
Itekuru
Baka
Kimochi warui
...

I can go on and on. I can also come with ENGLISH expressions that have no literal translation to portuguese and loose meaning on a translation too.

Anyway, I guess by now the language barrier of a limited time frame translation offers is understood. This will probably not affect a good book or article (since we have footnotes and the such), but for a time constrained translation as in a TV show, this is a serious known problem, and for a language that did not derive from Saxon/Latin origins, Japanese is way too different to get past this. For instance, lots of European (and thus American) languages derive from Latin, so you can usually find similar expressions among them - though there ARE exceptions. But languages that did not derive from the same origin will tend to have a lot more expressions that are literally ... impossible to "transliterate".

YES I'm being terribly and absurdbly picky on this, but this is just to explain my point, I DO NOT care most of the time about this on a sub because I'm aware this happens and has no solution, it just comes to show that although I don't care, it does not makes it non existent, thus I cannot say a translated dub can ever be as good as the original. It does not add up, it's not true.

To make it clear,I will never accept "but the dub in 'x-non-original' language actually was better than the original" for the following simple reasons:

1. On the point of view of content and meaning, you cannot beat the original. It's like saying a good translator can translate Shakespeare to Japanese and "make sound/be better" - no it can't, it was meant to be english. If you just translate the words, most of it might loose meaning, and others will sound terrible. The translator needs to be a poet, and even then some poems he cannot translate at all. Languages are different, period.

2. On the point of view of voice acting, it's a question of personal opinion and tastes, so there is no ultimate good or cons. I like it, you don't, someone else is unsure.

3. As mentioned, even if the ace "upper third of available translators" came to the rescue, you still cannot really translate language/cultural expressions, and some complex lines simply won't fit in another language limited time frame. I can't think of one now, specially because the most serious ones are big, but I'm sure you came across at times on subs that would BLINK on screen because in english they were too big to fit the short time between lines - you can pause a sub to read it, but in a dub you have to come up with something totally different.

I remember my poor "Vampire Princess Miyu" where, because of translations problems, they used a small moment with no chat (just scenic images and song between two scenes) and they queued a narrator (non-existent in the original) to explain what was going on. THAT WAS SO FREAKING WEIRD! LOL (the worst was that the morons did not realize it did not exist in the original, so they SUBBED IT LOL, so I was watching Japanese dub with english subs and all of the sudden silent + song and lots of subs showing and I was like "wtf? there is nobody talking!" XD~

And case point =/

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PostPosted: February 20th, 2008, 5:12 am 
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Caiobrz wrote:
Point is, it's a language expression unique to Japanese, with no real literal translation, so it will be lost in a dub - that's exactly why most subs leave it as "Itadakimasu" and give out a TL
lost in a dub? are you serious?!

and yet...
Caiobrz wrote:
...since let's be honest, after watching one anime you get what it means.


i know a couple english "sayings"!
THANKS FOR THE GRUB! LET'S F.CKING EAT!
I AM HOME!
I AM GOING OUT! SEE YA! BYE BYE!
LET'S JET!
LET'S BLOW THIS JOINT!

it is all about context. like many languages, japanese relies on it.


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PostPosted: February 20th, 2008, 4:44 pm 
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dbd_addict wrote:
THANKS FOR THE GRUB! LET'S F.CKING EAT!

I don't believe I've ever heard that one...and for that I'm kinda thankful...


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PostPosted: February 20th, 2008, 7:08 pm 
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dbd_addict wrote:
Caiobrz wrote:
Point is, it's a language expression unique to Japanese, with no real literal translation, so it will be lost in a dub - that's exactly why most subs leave it as "Itadakimasu" and give out a TL
lost in a dub? are you serious?!

and yet...
Caiobrz wrote:
...since let's be honest, after watching one anime you get what it means.


Yes, it is lost. Ever watched Friends? (...), can you really tell me Joey's worldwide famous "How are you doing!?" line wouldn't be totally ruined regardless of what translation comes? Dubbing language expressions always loose their values, I don't care if you can come with 300 different (there, you lost it, you need 300 different contextual literal translations for that one single Japanese world and you ask me if I'm serious), you already changed and twisted it badly. And as I mentioned, anyone get's what Itadakimasu means after one watch, so why bother translating and loosing it's real value?

Any lousy novice anime fan with three or four animes on their baggage can tell you what most janapese expressions like these means - if they watch it subbed. And that same exact expression (and many others, both in english or japanese or any other language) can be used in different contexts with subtle nuances. As I mentioned, you won't translate Itadakimasu the same way everytime, yet it's the same word, one learn to appreciate the reading between the line it comes from knowing it's the same word/expression. If you start with your 300 different translations for each 300 different contexts, the viewer won't know originally it was the same expression being used in different contexts.

One can learn and appreciate the grace the word "f.uck" has =p it has one million different translations depending on context, but it would be a waste to translate it. "Tell your puppy friend that if she does not get her puppy act together I'm going to fire her mother puppy ass". I remember a thread here people were discussing the subtle nuances of the words "crap" and "shit" lol. You translate it, that whole thread looses a shread of sense.

Not to mention language-specific jokes and terms that would then be sliced and diced. Titles like Jubei-chan or Mahou Shoujo Tai Arisu relies heavilly on language puns. Yes, they are lost in translation, and if you get the "third upper hand of translator" to magically come with the same puns in your language, they are probably have different meaning and repercusions than the original one.

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PostPosted: February 21st, 2008, 8:37 pm 
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Caiobrz wrote:
I don't think there is any in german: Itadakimasu get's almost literally in to "let's dig in" (which is the weakest but more literal translation)

But if there is a word in a language that fits into the situation - why not use it?
Right before digging in, Japanese say "Itadakimasu" ("I'm going to receive this meal") and Germans say "Guten Appetit" ("Eat heartily and empty your plate"). The meanings are different, but it's used in the same cultural context. It blends in and any attempt to translate it literally will fail. It might be well-meant, to show some Japanese culture, but the attempt is a futile one.
Translation means more than words and meanings, it also means context and compromise.
Trust me, I've been doing this for a while. :D

Caiobrz wrote:
I'm sure you can think of moments when "Itadakimasu" was used on ecchi scenes to jump in for the sex =p "graces"? LOOOOOOOL

Given then original meaning it's okay to say "itadakimasu", but in this situation, finding a proper expression is almost impossible. In that case, translation must be reduced to compromise.

Caiobrz wrote:
Tadaima

"Wilma, I'm home!"

Caiobrz wrote:
Okaeri

"Oh, hi Fred, welcome home!"

Caiobrz wrote:
Itekimasu
Itekuru

That's the one and same expression, just with different grammatical realizations.
The "-masu" flexion is more polite, that's all.

Caiobrz wrote:
Baka

Why's that hard? There's millions of words to call someone stupid, in any language.

Caiobrz wrote:
Kimochi warui

It's used to describe either physical or mental discomfort, mostly situational.
Depending o context there should be enough possibilities.

Caiobrz wrote:
lots of European (and thus American) languages derive from Latin, so you can usually find similar expressions among them - though there ARE exceptions.

Actually, English is an extreme case of language interaction. Whereas most Celtic elements are lost (the name of the river Thames is such a relict), Old Low German has had a strong influence after the conquest of the Britain by the Angles and Saxons during the 5th century. A little Latin came with Christian scholarship, but the major influx of "Latin" came with the Normans in the 11th century. BUT although they spoke French they were still descendants of Norwegian invaders (who were, in the 9th century, bribed with the duchy of Normandy so they would not pillage Paris), thus they spoke quite a non-standard (un-Parisian) French, and Chaucer still makes fun of that fact during the 14th century.
And last but not least it took a few centuries after the battle of Hastings until the rulers' French had found its way into the common Englishman's language - and just then the vice-versa effect kicked in and the ruling class began speaking English.
In short: I would not use English as the example of a language which is based on Latin.


Caiobrz wrote:
YES I'm being terribly and absurdbly picky on this

Oh, it's not just you... :lol:

Caiobrz wrote:
It's like saying a good translator can translate Shakespeare to Japanese and "make sound/be better" - no it can't, it was meant to be english.

"You have not experienced Shakespeare until you have read him in the original Klingon." :lol:

(Thanks for the great pass. I had to shoot that goal.)

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PostPosted: February 21st, 2008, 10:47 pm 
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shgarland wrote:
dbd_addict wrote:
THANKS FOR THE GRUB! LET'S F.CKING EAT!

I don't believe I've ever heard that one...and for that I'm kinda thankful...
i embellished as i was being sarcastic. 42317 explained my meaning in the proper direct way with his post.

Caiobrz wrote:
Yes, it is lost. Ever watched Friends? (...), can you really tell me Joey's worldwide famous "How are you doing!?" line wouldn't be totally ruined regardless of what translation comes? Dubbing language expressions always loose their values, I don't care if you can come with 300 different (there, you lost it, you need 300 different contextual literal translations for that one single Japanese world and you ask me if I'm serious), you already changed and twisted it badly. And as I mentioned, anyone get's what Itadakimasu means after one watch, so why bother translating and loosing it's real value?
Joey's "how you doin'!" is easily translated and it is not ruined. for fun i used to say "que paso" to a latin co-worker of mine for laughs. perhaps if you were translating the bible or the iliad i can see your point. in this situation we have action and expression to go along with the text so as you said before, "anyone get's what Itadakimasu means after one watch". it will not be ruined if they say, "let's eat" and "thanks for the food". you are romanticizing this way too much.


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PostPosted: February 22nd, 2008, 1:08 pm 
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42317 wrote:
Given then original meaning it's okay to say "itadakimasu", but in this situation, finding a proper expression is almost impossible. In that case, translation must be reduced to compromise.


Which means I finally got it thru a counter-proof that translation is not all mighty, and as far as I know, a counter-proof is enough to proof one's point. Case in point, translation cannot keep everything as they were, thanks.

Quote:
Joey's "how you doin'!" is easily translated and it is not ruined. for fun i used to say "que paso"


That's disgusting =p I said to my wife who happend to know spanish and she just said "that's horrible". No, you can't change "how you doin'" ;)

Quote:
"anyone get's what Itadakimasu means after one watch". it will not be ruined if they say, "let's eat" and "thanks for the food". you are romanticizing this way too much.


I just explained with a lot of arguments why you will loose the original multiple interpretations and meanings of the original words, you tell me I'm romanticizing things too much. Now I have to catch that ball and pass again:

Seams you would only better appreciate anime if you watches it in Klingon.

I leave with my scholar friend conclusion (though he also ignored my whole post on why translating some expressions will loose the original meanings just for the sake of culture change):

42317 wrote:
Translation = interpretation, and as a scholar of culture and language studies (both English and Japanese) I just can't help it.
I have little hopes that you understand my point, I just wish you understood that I'm not just a blockhead purist who despises foreign dub languages just for the fun of it, or because it's considered "chic" in some circles.


p.s.: It is in Japanese, with Japanese nuances and meanings, CULTURAL ADAPTATION IS NOT NEEDED for me, pass.

BTW why you both ignored my sample "impossible to dub" titles? I wonder :roll:

MST-Arisu fansub even slipped a 2 page .doc with long descriptions and explanations of every pun on almost every episode so people could understand/appreciate them. LOST if dubbed.

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PostPosted: February 22nd, 2008, 4:12 pm 
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Caiobrz wrote:
I leave with my scholar friend conclusion...

Okay, as long as I'm not your "little scholar friend"... :lol:


Caiobrz wrote:
he also ignored my whole post on why translating some expressions will loose the original meanings just for the sake of culture change (...) you both ignored my sample "impossible to dub" titles

I said what I thought was necessary.

Caiobrz wrote:
It is in Japanese, with Japanese nuances and meanings, CULTURAL ADAPTATION IS NOT NEEDED for me, pass.

If you can't live with cultural adaptations you'd better hurry and learn Japanese thoroughly.
Problem solved. :D

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PostPosted: February 22nd, 2008, 6:28 pm 
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Caiobrz wrote:
That's disgusting =p I said to my wife who happend to know spanish and she just said "that's horrible". No, you can't change "how you doin'" ;)
have you tried joey's "how you doin'" line on her? did it work? if you cannot make the english line work you certainly cannot make anything else work. my point is you can get the same retarded effect with a different line. you can use anything, there is more to it than just the stupid line.

Caiobrz wrote:
BTW why you both ignored my sample "impossible to dub" titles? I wonder :roll:

MST-Arisu fansub even slipped a 2 page .doc with long descriptions and explanations of every pun on almost every episode so people could understand/appreciate them. LOST if dubbed.
of course many things are lost in a dub especially a pun. my issue is how intolerant you are and your choice of examples.


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PostPosted: February 24th, 2008, 7:02 am 
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dbd_addict wrote:
my point is you can get the same retarded effect with a different line. you can use anything, there is more to it than just the stupid line.


Yeah, bad example, though I think you got the point.

dbd_addict wrote:
of course many things are lost in a dub especially a pun. my issue is how intolerant you are and your choice of examples.


If people agree many things are lost in translation I don't see the whole point of my rethoric =p
I'm not intolerant, as I mentioned I don't see any problem with watching dubs, specially those who somehow need it, all I want is people to be aware that it's not the same thing and, in some cases (more often than not), you will loose something.

Thuth be told, all my instance on this started with people actually saying some dubs are BETTER than the original dub. I can't see a smart person actually believing this, thus I started my argument. Other than that, yes, it's all a question of personal taste and tolerance to change.

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