Anime, Hentai, Manga, Bishoujo Games, Live Action Films, Music, Art, and Erotic Doujinshi Discussion Forum

It is currently December 14th, 2017, 12:18 pm


All times are UTC - 4 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 8 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Genre split?
PostPosted: December 10th, 2007, 2:18 am 
Offline
Regular
User avatar

Joined: May 15th, 2007, 2:23 pm
Posts: 430
Location: Brazil
So, I always knew this was the case but it seams an "unsolvable" problem (some will argue it's not a problem, and I AGREE, but reckoning the "issue" goes a long way into recommending, suggesting or writing a good criticism/review): there are anime made for the masses (1), and anime made for the critics (2)

Important pointers:

(1) Anime for the masses: those meant to entertain anyone, with a wide targed audience, possible (often aimed for) lots of merchandising, and "instant sucess formula" (c) developments.

(2) Anime for the critics: those where one want to feel imersed with the plot and characters, want to really connect to both plot (thus, it need to be believable, logic, acceptable as a possible reality, even if an alternate reality) and characters (thus, require believable personalities, character development and, regardless if starting or not with stock personalities, must evolve them as humans).

In one tip, we have what I call "all the way" anime for the masses: they lack plot, lack character development, and often lack several logic points. For instance, it's not real to expect us to watch 10 seasons of a 14 year old boy fighting random monsters.

On the other tip, we have serious titles with overly tweaked plots and character personalities/interactions, with a believable pacing and development. It's not required to be true to our universe, it can also be set into fantasy worlds, futuristic, alien words: as long as there is a clear logic tiying up what happens there (as if there is a universal phisical law, as our current scientists believe), so you can follow a logic and expect things to be believable (example: 12 kouki is a fantasy title, but all the fantasy glue together to make it a solid universe, thus, believable)

So, here is the problem: some people love the ones that are entertainment only, others strive for more content and logic, thus on the other end. Critics will tell you Naruto or One Piece are s*** with no plot (and they ARE right, the true Naruto fan would never get offended by that, but would reply: so what, the point is to entertain, not to be thought provoking), while the entertainment action-packed enthusiast will call Ergo Proxy or Sen to Chihiro boring and "hard to understand" (also true, they were never aimed to free you from boredom, but to be thought provoking or inspirational titles). How to SUGGEST a title to people knowing that?

For instance, in my recent discussion about Gurren-Lagann, you can clearly see this separation. It's a "Anime for the masses" title with a couple of twists and serious nuances, and thus, fans of the genre (entertainment) all praise it and there is an ongoing hype on all foruns that this is the "best" anime (some add "ever" later), and I even read some say "mecha anime will be compared to Gurren-Lagann from now on". As most of people watch anime for fun, it's quite obvious this means most rating systems will detect and put this title as, indeed, in the top 100 lists, if not top 50, quickly.

But what about people searching for something more than to sit in front of their TV, click on their brain switch "disable" and drowl away with amazing fights, hot fan service chicks and ridiculous outfits that make you laugh saying "man, this is just great!"? How to properly suggest such a title?

Also, how to properly create a rating system that makes it clear that it IS a epic title for all those striving for entertaining, but not so much for those looking for some more?

Perhaps we should not be worried into splitting anime among studios, the usual genre division (mecha, drama, romance, comedy ... every site has a big list of genres), but actually simply splitting them into TWO genres: Entertainment or Serious. There are those in between, and even Gurren-Lagann would not score a perfect 100% entertainment in this scale since there are serious moments, but wouldn't it be a better rating system to better tell people what to look for?

This is basically what divides opinions, and if a title creates lovers and haters, you can be SURE it's a near 100% entertainment or 100% serious title. Those in between seldom have diehard fans.

What you think?

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: December 10th, 2007, 2:56 am 
Offline
Regular
User avatar

Joined: September 13th, 2007, 2:17 pm
Posts: 569
Hmm....being a rather inexperienced anime fan, I'm not completely sure...however, I think the system that is currently in place works. Of course, it is annoying having fans of a show hating on another because it's either too serious or mainstream (or the worst kind who completely make love to one series and then waste months of their time hating on other series), but I'm not sure if a system that would split the series into those two categories would be effective.

For one thing, what factors effect anime fans into preferring one type or another (this of course is considering that some fans have a mixed love)? Maybe the fans who like the more serious stuff are just older or have more experience, maybe there are genetic or environmental factors that cause a preference, or maybe it's just the amount of each category that gets released.

Also, we would have to set a clear definition for both categories. So we would have to set a 100% serious standard, and a 100% entertainment standard so we could begin establishing a scale with which to rate anime.

And while it is feasible to do all this...I'm not sure if it would be effective (as I've said, there are various factors that may determine a person's anime choice).

_________________
"DUDE you got the jesus bling! That's like the bling that died for all the other blings' sin!"

Dr. Insane-o


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: December 10th, 2007, 2:56 am 
Offline
Regular
User avatar

Joined: May 15th, 2007, 2:23 pm
Posts: 430
Location: Brazil
(I replyed here to move out from the "what are you watching" thread, and this is pretty much the theme of this thread ;))

spazmaster666 wrote:
Like I said, when Kamina died, I was a little surprised, since, as I mentioned, the serious nature of the event didn't seem to fit into the show, however as the show progressed, it was clear that learning from loss is one of the themes of the show. Now I agree that certain deaths are predicatable and handled melodramatically but c'mon what do you expect? The show is completely driven by emotion. As such, Gurren Lagann is a cartoon, it's messages are simple, it's intentions are clear, from the very beginning. It's definitely not Evangelion.


Yes, it's a good example on this thread, Gurren is more towards entertainment, Evangelion is more towards serious title. But I don't agree with emotion-drive, what emotion? they were just blindly going foward, they said so themselves. There WAS emotion in their reactions to the deaths (if not, this would be easilly be the worst crap ever produced =p), but emotion driven .. nah

spazmaster666 wrote:
Ridiculously awesome as in I almost cheered out loud. ;)


>< and I almost cryed out loud "Oh my god this is so stupid" =p Why? you were being entertained, I was hoping for something serious. My mistake, granted, I might have a better time if people told me it was supposed to be this way, but 90% of what I read even in animetric forums pointed towards "a serious" Gainax show, not FLCL again.

spazmaster666 wrote:
What do you mean they "ruined" Lagann. I'm pretty sure the producers created exactly what they wanted. Maybe the series didn't turn out the way you wanted. Fine. But they didn't "ruin" it, they just created something different from what YOU wanted it to be.


I did not say it was not intentional, I say that this choice ruined, for ME, the title.

spazmaster666 wrote:
As I stated, I don't care what other people put in their top tens.


You contradict yourself, you used the argument that all foruns praise the title as the best of 2007, so?

spazmaster666 wrote:
In either case, the show is about emotion. It's not about mixing the sad with the funny but simply about emotion. Emotions can be serious, they can be sad, they can be funny, they can be happy. Gurren Lagann is a show driven by emotions, not by logic, not be reason, and certain not by probability.


Something meant to turn off your brain and have a good time, as you mentioned "having fun like you did when you were a child watching cartoons" hardly can be emotion-driven. I don't think it was, Kurau was emotion-driven, Gurren not =p

spazmaster666 wrote:
Yes I agree Terra is a better show, however, in watching Gurren Lagann I haven't so much fun with an anime in a LONG TIME. In fact I really don't care about its shortcomings. I really don't. It's a completely emotional experience. If you're trying to get anything else out of it, then you're trying too hard or you're simply missing the point.


Yeap, two examples of totally diferent "genres" (as proposed here)

spazmaster666 wrote:
Like I said, Gurren Lagann is definitely not Evangelion since it's message is far simpler and more transparent compared to the muddled, confused, and misguided philosophies Evangelion proposed. It's not FLCL either since while Gurren Lagann is wacky, it's wacky for completely different reasons


Yet still wacky =p

spazmaster666 wrote:
Do you remember how much you enjoyed watching cartoons as a kid? Well that's exactly how I felt when I watched Gurren Lagann. And hell, that's a rare feat for any show to accomplish.


I do, I grew up, I can't stand those anymore, and I did not expect to have to watch one of those again now, see my point ;) I'm not saying Gurren is wrong or bad, but we should have better ways to warn people about the contents of the anime. As I mentioned, if I new beforehand about this, I might have liked it a lot more by "adjusting" my mindset in conformance with this information ;)

I have the anime here, and I might rewatch in the future with the correct mindset ;)

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: December 10th, 2007, 3:02 am 
Offline
Regular
User avatar

Joined: May 15th, 2007, 2:23 pm
Posts: 430
Location: Brazil
Cab329 wrote:
Maybe the fans who like the more serious stuff are just older or have more experience


That's probably the main reason. The more you watch, the more used you get to how anime is done, the more annoyed you get with the usual cliches. Someone who NEVER watched an anime will probably not get some of the predictability/clichês we get. I don't think education or genetics have a factor here.

Quote:
Also, we would have to set a clear definition for both categories. So we would have to set a 100% serious standard, and a 100% entertainment standard so we could begin establishing a scale with which to rate anime.


Hmmm yeah that would be the worst thing to do. The ones that are over the top to one side or the other would be easy, the ones in between would be harder.

Quote:
...I'm not sure if it would be effective (as I've said, there are various factors that may determine a person's anime choice).


Sure! not saying to scrap nowadays genre system, but to add some of this as an extra, like "ok this is fantasy + romance + mecha, but is this serious or just for fun?" is what I most often ask myself and seek out in foruns.

Perhaps a user-based rating system, people would vote (like they rate normaly) an anime as serious or fun, and than we can get a consensual standard. And I don't think it would get biased: people who hate for instance Naruto would certainly vote "fun", and people who love it too .. I can't see someone voting "serious" unless as a joke. I think it could work.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: December 10th, 2007, 3:13 am 
Offline
Regular
User avatar

Joined: September 13th, 2007, 2:17 pm
Posts: 569
Well true, anyone that actually took time would probably vote fairly (there would always be a couple oddities, and terms other than serious or fun might have to be used (so as to avoid any possible confusion)). As long as a scale system was implemented with some pre-approved standards for the median and extremes (so fans would'nt randomnly select a number), it could work.

_________________
"DUDE you got the jesus bling! That's like the bling that died for all the other blings' sin!"

Dr. Insane-o


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: December 10th, 2007, 3:27 am 
Offline
Major Contributor
User avatar

Joined: April 26th, 2007, 7:33 pm
Posts: 1210
Location: Austin, Texas
I get what you're saying, but you're also kind of missing the point. How do we rate anime? Well, when I write a review for this site, I consider a lot of things. Plot development is certainly considered, and so is character development, quality of visuals, enjoyability factor, among other things. The overall score for an anime is dependent upon all those elements combined. But in my opinion, enjoyability is a very important aspect of anime since most of us don't buy anime so that we can learn a lesson from it, or so we can get some kind of social-political message. Most of us buy anime because we find it enjoyable to watch anime. So for me, enjoyability is absolutely the most important aspect of most anime, especially when you're reviewing it to help others decide if they want to watch it or not.

However, I also agree that certain shows and certain works are made not to entertain us but to deliever a message. For instance,"Grave of the Fireflies was certainly not an enjoyable movie to watch, but it was powerful because it delivered a very powerful and important message. But does that mean it's a "better" anime than an anime that doesn't really deliver an important message?

I agree that the problem with criticism is that films meant for different audiences serve different purposes are reviewed in the same manner. For instance, look at movie criticism and you'll see that critics always give the artistic and meaningful works a high score since, since that makese sense from a serious or critical point of view. And vice versa, critics always give more mainstream titles lower scores because their messages are simplier, less elegant, and less "meaningful". Therefore, an artistic and meaningful movie may get a 9 our of 10 while a fun and enjoyable, but not so meaningful movie will get maybe a 5 or 6 of 10.

Take a quick trip to Rottentomatoes.com and you'll see that Schindler's List got positive reviews from 96% of the critics. Now take a look at Transformers and you'll see that it only 56% of the critics gave it a positive review. Does that mean Schindler's List is a better movie? Well how do you define better? Do you define it by how enjoyable it was? Or do you define by how powerful the message was? Or do you define it by how artitic or technically impressive it was? Personally while I liked Schindler's List, I didn't have much fun watching, because the movie was not designed to be enjoyable. It was designed to deliever a message. Now go back to Transformers and it's clear that the movie was mainly designed to be enjoyable and though it did deliver a message, that message was pretty simple and pretty obvious.

Now then, which is really better? Well the answer depends on whether or not the enjoyability of a film can overcome its shortcomings from the serious critical perspective or whether or not the message of the film and the artistic or technical merits of the film can overcome its general lack of enjoyability. In the case of Schindler's List I would say this is definitely the case. I would say the same for Transformers, but to a lesser extent. Hence, I would still conclude that Schindler's List is a better movie.

And you know what, if I were to review Gurren Lagann I'd give it a lower score than something like Graves of the Fireflies or even Cowboy Bebop. Why? Because even though two anime series may be intended for different audiences or different purposes, ultimately the score depends on the combination of all the elements. It's just that the individual elements are weighed differently from one anime to the other, in context.

Another good example is a movie like War (which starred Jet Li and Jason Statham). It got terrible ratings from most critics (with a dubious score of 13% on Rottentomatoes) and yet for fans of the genre, like me, War was still pretty enjoyable to watch.

While it does make some sense to review mainstream anime separately from anime "for the critics" I don't think this ultimately serves the main purpose of anime reviews: to help people decide whether or not an anime is worth watching and/or worthing buying. I think movie criticism in general has strayed somewhat from this purpose and and that's too bad. But that doesn't mean anime reviewers have to follow suit.

_________________
Image
Image


Last edited by spazmaster666 on December 10th, 2007, 3:58 am, edited 4 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: December 10th, 2007, 3:43 am 
Offline
Major Contributor
User avatar

Joined: April 26th, 2007, 7:33 pm
Posts: 1210
Location: Austin, Texas
Sorry double post since my previous post is a response to the opening post of this thread.

Caiobrz wrote:
Yes, it's a good example on this thread, Gurren is more towards entertainment, Evangelion is more towards serious title. But I don't agree with emotion-drive, what emotion? they were just blindly going foward, they said so themselves. There WAS emotion in their reactions to the deaths (if not, this would be easilly be the worst crap ever produced =p), but emotion driven .. nah


How is it not emotionally driven? The entire pretense of the show is designed to appeal to our emotions rather than our logic or reason. The show is all about being "in the moment."

Caiobrz wrote:
>< and I almost cryed out loud "Oh my god this is so stupid" =p Why? you were being entertained, I was hoping for something serious. My mistake, granted, I might have a better time if people told me it was supposed to be this way, but 90% of what I read even in animetric forums pointed towards "a serious" Gainax show, not FLCL again.


I dunno, the opening credits should have told you right away that Gurren Lagann was meant to be a cartoon rather than a serious feature. But who says cartoons can't have serious moments?

Caiobrz wrote:
You contradict yourself, you used the argument that all foruns praise the title as the best of 2007, so?


No I didn't. I clearly stated that I the reason I thought the title was one of the best of 2007 was NOT because of what others thought.

I'll post the quote from my original statement:

Quote:
And I'm not just saying that because guys like Omni or moyism liked it, or because it was so damn popular. I'm saying that because I truly was very impressed by the series.


Quote:
Something meant to turn off your brain and have a good time, as you mentioned "having fun like you did when you were a child watching cartoons" hardly can be emotion-driven. I don't think it was, Kurau was emotion-driven, Gurren not =p


It's not turning the brain off, it's simply activating different regions of the brain. Also you're not making much sense here. Emotion is simply something that you feel. So feeling happy is an emotion, just like feeling sad is an emotion. So how is feeling happy about watching a cartoon not an emotional experience? I almost wanted to cheer out loud when the final battle was over? How is that not an emotional experience?

Quote:
Yeap, two examples of totally diferent "genres" (as proposed here)


Yes, Gurren Lagann is definitely genre-based entertainment.

Quote:
I do, I grew up, I can't stand those anymore, and I did not expect to have to watch one of those again now, see my point ;) I'm not saying Gurren is wrong or bad, but we should have better ways to warn people about the contents of the anime. As I mentioned, if I new beforehand about this, I might have liked it a lot more by "adjusting" my mindset in conformance with this information ;)


You're still not getting it. I'm not saying Gurren Lagann is a kids cartoon, as it certainly isn't. It's a cartoon, but for people a little older (teens and above I'd say) But that's not the point I was making. The point is that it made me feel just about as good as when I was watching cartoons as a kid. And that FEELING is what I'm referring to. And trust me, you'll never have a greater feeling of happiness than when you were just a kid.

Sure you can call it "cheesy" or you can call it "melodrama." Fine, call it whatever you want. But that's a critical response, not an emotional one and hence, it's not what is intended for a show like Gurren Lagann.

_________________
Image
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: December 14th, 2007, 1:38 pm 
Offline
Regular
User avatar

Joined: May 15th, 2007, 2:23 pm
Posts: 430
Location: Brazil
I was away for 5 days on a semi-business trip, sorry for the delay since I started the thread XD~

Quote:
But in my opinion, enjoyability is a very important aspect of anime since most of us don't buy anime so that we can learn a lesson from it, or so we can get some kind of social-political message.


Totally agreed. As I mentioned if I knew Gurren was not a serious title from the start I would probably have enjoyed more. I still think it could have used a little more consistency, like, the end is too grounded to the rest of the wacky plot, I think it lack's identity, it is too fun/entertainment to have all those deaths and serious end.

Quote:
Take a quick trip to Rottentomatoes.com and you'll see that Schindler's List got positive reviews from 96% of the critics. Now take a look at Transformers and you'll see that it only 56% of the critics gave it a positive review. Does that mean Schindler's List is a better movie?


Yeah, that's why I think we should split into "fun/entertainment" and "serious/thought provoking", so Schindler's List is a top title on serious/thought provoking, and Transformer is a top title on fun/entertainment. Both are top, but for totally different reasons. If you wake up one day and want to watch something top rated, I guess it still depends on your mood: top rated FUN or top rated PLOT? thus, I find it important to make it clear why it's good/not good.

Quote:
And you know what, if I were to review Gurren Lagann I'd give it a lower score than something like Graves of the Fireflies or even Cowboy Bebop. Why? Because even though two anime series may be intended for different audiences or different purposes, ultimately the score depends on the combination of all the elements. It's just that the individual elements are weighed differently from one anime to the other, in context.


Totally agreed agian, I finished my review for it (not online yet) and I am going for a 3/5 or 4/5 rating because, as I mentioned, it fails to be really entertaining for some people (me!me!) or serious. I mean, there are serious good titles where characters don't need to die in futile attempts to create melo moments, why a comedy-oriented sci-fi title had to do that? that's why I will not rate it top. BUT I will make sure to tell people that, if they can take it, they are on for a 100% top title.

Quote:
to help people decide whether or not an anime is worth watching and/or worthing buying. I think movie criticism in general has strayed somewhat from this purpose and and that's too bad. But that doesn't mean anime reviewers have to follow suit.


Again, agreed. I top rated Galaxy Angels. A critic would never do that,but it's plain brainless entertainment to make you laugh, and it succeds on that, so a top rate. I always think about how to suggest a title for people when I review stuff: who would like it, who wouldn't. A title like Gurren is a good example where going all the way to PRAISE or CONDEMN is a very wrong view. It depends what you are looking for ;)

If I could go back, delete Gurren from my mind, read this discussion and rewatch, I think I would be near rating it 10 and joining the hype =p

Quote:
How is it not emotionally driven? The entire pretense of the show is designed to appeal to our emotions rather than our logic or reason. The show is all about being "in the moment."


Something funny and that cannot be taken seriously will never be emotionally driven, unless you are considering it's "to the masses" emotion, which I agree, but for someone looking for a serious bonding with the character, it fails terribly.

Quote:
I dunno, the opening credits should have told you right away that Gurren Lagann was meant to be a cartoon rather than a serious feature. But who says cartoons can't have serious moments?


Hmm, I agree, my mistake, the OP is indeed a good pointer. I also agree fun cartoons can have serious moments, but Gurren's were too much stock-moments, know what I mean? like the "if they focus too much in a character, and he says 'I will be right back', he will die". They could have done that a lot better (think Karina/Yuu from Terra he ... same situation but beautifully done)

Quote:
It's not turning the brain off, it's simply activating different regions of the brain.


Potâto, potáto

Quote:
So feeling happy is an emotion, just like feeling sad is an emotion. So how is feeling happy about watching a cartoon not an emotional experience? I almost wanted to cheer out loud when the final battle was over? How is that not an emotional experience?


If you THOUGHT (like me, my mistake again, but try to get in my shoes for a second please) it was supposed to be serious and you were exepcting something interesting and with sound logic/believability, would you STILL have said emotions or would you feel enraged by all the ridiculous events?

Quote:
And trust me, you'll never have a greater feeling of happiness than when you were just a kid.


The biggest emotions I had on anime/movies were on seriously good and emotional titles that are very far from a "teen" title. Like Fantastic Children, Byousoku 5cm, Iryia. And they were all a lot more emotional and touching than the mindless fun I have with, say, Galaxy angels =p

Let's say I can only feel if I can FEEL the characters, and I cannot feel the characters if they are inside a wacky corny comedy.

Quote:
Sure you can call it "cheesy" or you can call it "melodrama." Fine, call it whatever you want. But that's a critical response, not an emotional one and hence, it's not what is intended for a show like Gurren Lagann.


QFT! As I said, it was all my mistake from taking it too seriously from the start. I will sum up my conclusion on Gurren with this:

If, at the time little bunto (the rat-thing, don't remember it's name) chops of his ass and gives to starving Simon, I should have LAUGHED and figured "this anime rocks, this is so fun" instead of getting angry and saying "My God this is so stupid, I can't believe I'm watching this shit" .... and I would have the first thought if I knew what I know by now about the title, trust me, I like those kind of things (I said I like Galaxy Angels didn't I?). That's why, again, on a review I warn people about this kind of stuff, I often conclude with some "IFs":

"IF you want entertainment and action, Gurren-Lagann is for you, and while at it, you will probably put it on your top list, however IF you want something more serious and plot oriented, you might as well drop it"

And on the topic, that's where I think the IF is: entertainment oriented titles, where logic, plot or seriousness is not the goal, and serious OR thought-provoking titles. Warning people beforehand is important (if this thread was for, like, Ergo Proxy, and someone started hoping for a action thriller with good laughs and was whinning it was dead boring, we would be on the same issue, except reversed ;) ... knowing Ergo Proxy is serious and thought-provoking goes a long way to prevent people who HATE these kind of titles to even trying despite how much hype or good reviews it gets ... same as with Gurren ... regardless of how much hype and good reviews it gets, knowing it's more towards entertainment can prepare you to what is to come so you actually enjoy it, rather than getting you unprepaired.

The big IF's of live =p

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 8 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 4 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group