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PostPosted: November 8th, 2007, 9:30 am 
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Caiobrz wrote:

And about Dei, A million people just got an heart attack hearing your thought-provoking insight into how art is dumb and all generalized universal new anime is dumb. Something not even worth arguing I guess. You might consider one of three options: wait until you reach 16, read the "What's wrong with most new anime?", or simple try some new anime besides Naruto before judging 200+ anime per year as crap.

OR you might ignore what I just said, since I go for art, so it seams I'm dumb 8)


I said, "a lot of dumb people go into art". A lot, not all. It's up to you if you want to put yourself into that category.

Art doesn't have any sense of an absolute "right", unlike mathematics or the other sciences; and, most of all, art doesn't promote any sense of acquisition of knowledge. Art is practice, not study. My usage of "dumb" is as an apt adjective for it; and I do believe dumb can be used in a non-derogatory fashion.

Anyway, if you find it abrasive, think that it's just my opinion.

Oh, and I do like some newer series; just that a lot of newer animes I've seen are crap.


Last edited by Dei on November 8th, 2007, 10:23 am, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: November 9th, 2007, 2:11 am 
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Intelligence comes in many different forms, including artistic expression.

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PostPosted: November 9th, 2007, 9:00 am 
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Output=Practice=Art. Input=Learning=Science.

Art isn't study. Art is practice, and something created out of practice can be appreciated. However, it really doesn't promote acquisition of knowledge. Even technique refinement, commonly associated with art, is actually scientific, as it is learning.

Nobody can be wrong in art whereas there is only one right in science.

And I do disagree about idiots not getting far in art. Are you saying all successful artists are intelligent people? A lot of artists are just good at what they do, and have very little capacity, or just disdain, to learn. I've run into some digital artists, and saw a beautiful poster they were making, and asked, "Why are the fonts there?", and they replied, "because I think it looks nice". In fact, nearly all the artists I've met have been satisfied with giving "I think it looks nice", or some variation of, as their explanation.

Abstractness is not knowledge. Knowledge is an absolute sense of what's going on. So, yes, I do believe that a lot of dumb people succeed in art.

To all the artists out there, I would like to ask, "Why do you think you regard something as beautiful?" Answer that, and you will be scientists. Then when you feel like you've reached your zenith, come back and show me what you've seen - because you will only be able to create wonderful things when you've seen wonderful things. Why do you think people look for inspiration?

I think why people are taking my prior comment in offense is that they're taking the expression "dumb" derogatorily; and if that's the case, I will ask for an apology, for it would be lacking in tact. I used "dumb" with this bearing, "lacking intelligence : stupid b: showing a lack of intelligence, requiring no intelligence", as taken from M-W. Please do not put any additional implications to what I said.

So why did I bring it up? I'm trying to give a reason for the abundance of variation in art. That's why you see genres: mecha anime, drama, sports, and so on. There's a formula.

Take Gundam, for example. Mecha+Pilot+Fighting and market it as something new. Sentai shows = Color coded good guys + mecha + bad guy.

It's practice.


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PostPosted: November 10th, 2007, 11:45 pm 
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Dei wrote:
Output=Practice=Art. Input=Learning=Science.

Art isn't study. Art is practice, and something created out of practice can be appreciated. However, it really doesn't promote acquisition of knowledge. Even technique refinement, commonly associated with art, is actually scientific, as it is learning.

Nobody can be wrong in art whereas there is only one right in science.

And I do disagree about idiots not getting far in art. Are you saying all successful artists are intelligent people? A lot of artists are just good at what they do, and have very little capacity, or just disdain, to learn. I've run into some digital artists, and saw a beautiful poster they were making, and asked, "Why are the fonts there?", and they replied, "because I think it looks nice". In fact, nearly all the artists I've met have been satisfied with giving "I think it looks nice", or some variation of, as their explanation.

Abstractness is not knowledge. Knowledge is an absolute sense of what's going on. So, yes, I do believe that a lot of dumb people succeed in art.

To all the artists out there, I would like to ask, "Why do you think you regard something as beautiful?" Answer that, and you will be scientists. Then when you feel like you've reached your zenith, come back and show me what you've seen - because you will only be able to create wonderful things when you've seen wonderful things. Why do you think people look for inspiration?

I think why people are taking my prior comment in offense is that they're taking the expression "dumb" derogatorily; and if that's the case, I will ask for an apology, for it would be lacking in tact. I used "dumb" with this bearing, "lacking intelligence : stupid b: showing a lack of intelligence, requiring no intelligence", as taken from M-W. Please do not put any additional implications to what I said.

So why did I bring it up? I'm trying to give a reason for the abundance of variation in art. That's why you see genres: mecha anime, drama, sports, and so on. There's a formula.

Take Gundam, for example. Mecha+Pilot+Fighting and market it as something new. Sentai shows = Color coded good guys + mecha + bad guy.

It's practice.


No no, art is not a skill, it is a talent. People don't just get good at art through practice if they weren't born with the talent. Just like people don't become good scientists simply through learning if they weren't born with the talent. Intelligence is something we are born with. Sure we have a choice to either develop that intelligence to the best of our ability or not, but it's not something we can suddenly increase simply by learning new things, just like artistic ability is not something we can suddenly increase simply through practice. We have to have the potential in the first place. Some people have this potential, some people don't. Our genes determine how much potential we have, but our actions determine how close we reach that potential.

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PostPosted: November 11th, 2007, 4:04 am 
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That's a pretty elitist perspective, spaz.

By "practice", I meant application. As in, technology or applied sciences - things that can only be done when the concepts necessary have been learned.

I had horrid caligraphy, but once I learned how the brush behaved, I compensated and my calligraphy improved.

What I've been trying to say is that art doesn't promote acquisition of knowledge.

My calligraphy is beautiful. I'll write a book's worth with my skill.

That's art.

I don't really know about potential; though I think the concept is overrated when talking about accomplishment. Something weaker can prevail over something stronger depending on the circumstances.

If you're associating potenial with my usage of "dumb people" - please don't misunderstand. When I say "dumb people", people who display a lack of intelligence. I don't mean an absolute lack of talent, necessarily. Maybe"learned" would be more apt.


Last edited by Dei on November 11th, 2007, 4:41 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: November 11th, 2007, 4:17 am 
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Dei wrote:
What I've been trying to say is that art doesn't promote acquisition of knowledge.

Jobs like construction don't need people who are smart either, but without them you wouldn't have a house to live in. This discussion of yours is really retarded.

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PostPosted: November 11th, 2007, 4:45 am 
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Dei wrote:
That's a pretty elitist perspective, spaz.

By "practice", I meant application. As in, technology or applied sciences - things that can only be done when the concepts necessary have been learned.

I had horrid caligraphy, but once I learned how the brush behaved, I compensated and my calligraphy improved.

What I've been trying to say is that art doesn't promote acquisition of knowledge.

My calligraphy is beautiful. I'll write a book's worth with my skill.

That's art.

I don't really know about potential; though I think the concept is overrated when talking about accomplishment. Something weaker can prevail over something stronger depending on the circumstances.

If you're associating potenial with my usage of "dumb people" - please don't misunderstand. When I say "dumb people", people who display a lack of intelligence. I don't mean an absolute lack of talent, necessarily. Maybe"learned" would be more apt.


However, you had the potential to be good at calligraphy. Obviously a lot of times, we cannot exceed at something we are talented in until we nurture that talent. However, if we never had the talent to begin with, we can never reach the same level as someone who has it, all other factors being equal. You can liken this to human physical growth. Our maximum physical growth potential (i.e. height) is determined by our genes. However, depending on environmental conditions, we may be able to reach that potential or we may not. And nothing short of genetic manipulation or mutation could we exceed that maximum growth potential. The same goes for intelligence. How intelligent we can be depends on our genes. Then depending on environmental factors, we may or may not reach our full potential. A few decades ago, people generally believed that intelligence was mostly dictated by environmental effects, which also created the concept of "everyone has the same potential." However, recent scientific research indicates this is certainly not true. Not everyone is born equal. Some are born with greater potential in certain areas than others. It's just a fact of nature and the evolutionary process. In fact, this is what makes each of us unique.

And I'm not being elitist. I'm simply following what the science says.

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PostPosted: November 11th, 2007, 5:11 am 
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Spaz, I'm not saying you're wrong. It's that I'm not talking about potential here.

Mmsven wrote:
Jobs like construction don't need people who are smart either, but without them you wouldn't have a house to live in.


Well, I can't really disagree with that - though I'm confident that I can build my own house if I wanted to.

Mmsven wrote:
This discussion of yours is really retarded.


Hey, look. If you're uncomfortable with me talking about this, I'll stop.

I just want to clear out that I did this because I wanted to show why there's so much repetition in anime. I'm sorry if I did it abrasively.


Last edited by Dei on November 11th, 2007, 5:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: November 11th, 2007, 5:21 am 
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Mmsven wrote:
This discussion of yours is really retarded.

Comments like these do little to build friendly, civil relationships on the forum, lets try and refrain from insulting people. If you want to disagree with a point, just respectfully disagree.

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PostPosted: November 11th, 2007, 6:15 am 
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I'm sorry that I dislike your topic of discussion, which I do not see a point to. No one even mentioned art and then out of the blue, you just say its dumb without giving a reason to why you brought it up. This resulted in this topic drifting away like the title suggests.

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PostPosted: November 11th, 2007, 6:23 am 
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Just to chime in with my own 2 cents, I have a friend who's a professional graphics designer and artist, and he ASSURES me that anyone, ANYONE, can learn to draw and paint. Spaz is right in that certain people will have a greater talent and affinity for art, and will pick up the nuances much more quickly, but everybody can achieve a proficiency in a style of art if they have the will and the dedication to learn and master it. (For proof, have a look at all the 'Learn how to draw/paint/colour in the anime/freestyle/expressionist' self-help books.)

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PostPosted: November 11th, 2007, 9:27 am 
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Mmsven wrote:
I'm sorry that I dislike your topic of discussion, which I do not see a point to. No one even mentioned art and then out of the blue, you just say its dumb without giving a reason to why you brought it up. This resulted in this topic drifting away like the title suggests.


I've said this before. I think a reason anime has gotten repetitive is because art is dumb. You're only gonna get as far as your inspiration; and a lot of people who get into anime watched anime. A lot of veterans in the industry, like Yoshiyuki Tomino, share the same sentiment.

Now, I hope that clears it up. I guess I was expecting too much..


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PostPosted: November 12th, 2007, 5:27 am 
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Dei wrote:
I've said this before. I think a reason anime has gotten repetitive is because art is dumb. You're only gonna get as far as your inspiration; and a lot of people who get into anime watched anime. A lot of veterans in the industry, like Yoshiyuki Tomino, share the same sentiment.

Now, I hope that clears it up. I guess I was expecting too much..


Well you could probably say the same thing about the film and television industry in general, and definitely the video game industry as well. After a while, it simply more difficult to come up with completely brand new or original content. Especially when improving upon a known quantity is more likely to make you money than going out there with something brand new. I mean this is still a business after all, and the main purpose of this industry is still to make money.

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PostPosted: November 12th, 2007, 1:01 pm 
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Zaxares wrote:
a friend who's a professional graphics designer and artist, he ASSURES me that anyone, ANYONE, can learn to draw and paint.

Back et the end of the 90s when the first real Anime and Manga hype set in over here a lot of young heads popped out stating they had so many ideas and thus wanted to draw Manga, too. Most of the results were crappy, but on the other hand, they were only created for personal reasons anyway.

A little while later the industry realized the potential of native Manga artists, because these would have some selling potential due to the fact that they produced stories out of the society they were raised in, giving their ideas a more immediate touch, as opposed to some rather "outlandish" Japanese topics. National and European prizes were offered at certain conventions, like at the book fair of Leipzig ("Leipziger Buchmesse"). So some of the heads who had popped out earlier became eager to go commercial, but had to realize they lacked the potential.

At this point, many letters were written to Anime and Manga magazine editors asking them what they thought could be done to become a real Manga artist, and there were lots of encouraging, meaningless or neutral comments which lacked real information. They were equal in the part that they promoted practicing, but one editor really hit the nail on the head and said it in a short, yet effective sentece:
"If you want to become a Manga artist then I'd recommend you to practice drawing until your fingers bleed!"

Creating art is also a matter of talent, but it's mainly a matter of training.
If you hone your skills regularly, every day, you'll become a good drawer. A friend of mine is proving that right now and has moved into the Deviant Art web tree. If you draw well you can do comics and Manga. Given enough training, anybody can do that. I mean, the stories can be written by other people.

A painter might find it a little more difficult. You need a better imagination and expressional power than a comic artist. All of a story has to be expressed in a single picture and I guess it takes some intelligence to achieve that, well, in case the artist wants to express something that is beyond what the eye can see. Drawing people, landscapes and all kinds of objects seems relatively easy.
Edward Münch's "Der Schrei" for example shows a screaming person. That's not a major achievement, but it's the intention behind the picture that needs intelligence and sensibility.

There may be lots of dumb people in arts, but I don't know of any one who is in any way successful, and whereas I said that comics can be done by anyone - as opposed to "real paintings" - I am not saying that Manga or comic artists are dumb in comparison. I'm just saying that they are less in need of expressive talent.

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PostPosted: November 13th, 2007, 12:21 am 
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Someone who thinks that he can "learn" art and it's not a talent nor a gift is not even worth of a reply.

Art is dumb ... so artists are dumb, that's great.

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