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PostPosted: December 7th, 2007, 3:49 am 
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Caiobrz wrote:
lol that was so uncalled for .... nobody was forcing no one about naming conventions, I, as NOT an American Jackass, only wanted other people's opinions so I could make an informed decision on which was best.

Sorry...just got frustrated with it. As for which one's best? In the case of Naruto I think it'd make more sense if - regardless of which way they'd go - the anime and manga would match up. In the anime it would be Naruto Uzumaki, while when Gaara spoke of him in this month's Shonen Jump chapters it was Uzumaki Naruto. Happy the part 2 manga is getting published in America now, though.


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PostPosted: December 9th, 2007, 5:31 pm 
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The Adict wrote:
Ugh, yeah the German is going to give us English lessons. That's a good idea.

Not quite. That would be Japanese lessons. They include cultural items like name order. :D

The Adict wrote:
I'm guessing though has to do with the speed difference between Japanese and English. From my experience of listening to other languages, English is very very slow by comparison.

What does that have to do with name order?
From a linguistically traditional point of view I would say that the habit to say the family (or company) name first shows that people in East Asia care about family (and company) ties more than about individuality, the first name is less important so it's put at the end of the line.

From a modern point of view this is crap. It's not our thoughts that form our language, it's our language that directs our thoughts. We are confronted with language before our consciousness has fully awakened, so we take all the concepts and notions of the people who teach us how to speak for granted and act (and speak) accordingly.

Which is to say someone, a long, long time ago, developed the habit of telling the family's name first and then adding the individual name, and that someone was influential enough to impose that habit on his environment.

That doesn't help you much, I guess.
Well, so I'm back to what I have already said. Studying Japanese language and culture leaves a mark, and because of that indocrination I'm having a hard time shutting up when someone says, e.g., "Yuji Tanaka" instead of "Tanaka Yuji", like I'm used to sitting on a toilet seat instead of squatting above the ceramic...

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PostPosted: December 13th, 2007, 12:19 pm 
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Okay, I'm trying very very hard not to laugh. My last post was supposed to be, A JOKE! HAHAHAHAHAHAHA Sorry sorry. I poke fun at the USA every once in awhile. I think it's good to have a sense of humor about your homeland. Note where I say I'm from.

Okay any body else feel the 42317 last post needs to go into the philosophy thread so we can talk it to death but me?

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PostPosted: December 14th, 2007, 1:55 am 
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The Adict wrote:
Okay any body else feel the 42317 last post needs to go into the philosophy thread so we can talk it to death but me?

How did we go from moe types to placement of surnames in Japanese culture, anyway? I'd really like to know. I think questions of how it should be deserve to be voiced, but since this thread was originally a poll on moe types I feel we've really gotten off topic.
:oops:


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PostPosted: December 15th, 2007, 5:34 pm 
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shgarland wrote:
How did we go from moe types to placement of surnames in Japanese culture, anyway? I'd really like to know.

It's Caiobrz's fault! Because on December 02
Caiobrz wrote:
hmm one question though, when writing oriental names here in a western forum, why switch fo family-name + first-name mode?


:D

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PostPosted: December 16th, 2007, 12:21 am 
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So that's what happened. It is interesting...I just feel like it deserves its own thread is all.

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PostPosted: December 16th, 2007, 9:21 pm 
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Here's the thing: I think a lot of us who prefer to use the Sino-Japanese order of names is that it simply sounds more natural and because it's what we're used to hearing in anime. For me saying "Naruto Uzamaki" for instance just sounds completely strange, whereas saying "Uzamaki Naruto" just sounds more natural.

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PostPosted: December 19th, 2007, 7:58 pm 
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Cab329 wrote:
Okay.........:( (why'd you have to bring the US into it adict? )

Believe it or not, it's an American trait. When I was a kid I saw these movies, mostly about hijackings and stuff and one (white) American would always stand up and say "You can't do this to me! I'm an American citizen!" and I hated these characters because they implied that people from other nations were inferior to them.
Well, those were just movies. But there are American exchange students in Japan who, upon instruction, earnestly state that they didn't have to to divide trash because "I'm American, I don't need to do that!" I immediately felt reminded of those movies... there is a tendency of hubris among these people, using US citizenship as an excuse for pretty much anything. :lol:

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PostPosted: December 20th, 2007, 5:11 am 
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Part of me thinks I shouldn't say this, but I guess I have to play Devil's Advocate here. :P Actually, I HAVE found a significant proportion of Americans to be patronising, and perhaps even a little arrogant, when it comes to dealing with people from other parts of the world. They may not even be aware of it themselves, but they have this deep seated notion that their culture, and their way of life, is the best in the world, and that all other nations should look up to and emulate them. As such, they tend to be overly dismissive of complaints or criticism levelled against them, adopting an attitude of "I know better", and expecting people to capitulate to them eventually.

Now, believe it or not, I don't think it's actually these people's fault that they think like this. I'm no anthropologist or sociologist, but I personally believe this is the result of growing up in a country knowing that you belong to the most militarily, economically and politically powerful nation in the world. From young, they have been raised to believe that American is the greatest country on Earth (and there's quite a lot of truth in that), and so gradually, they come to believe that they are, by extension, more important than other people who are not Americans. Patriotism is generally a good thing, but it can easily lead to pride and hubris.

To be fair, not all Americans are like that. I have some very good American friends who are fun and exciting to talk to and be with, but even they, I've noticed, sometimes carry that little air of superiority when it comes to talking about their country and their lifestyle. All that said, however, that doesn't stop me being friends with them.

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PostPosted: December 21st, 2007, 1:55 pm 
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Well, I won't order anyone, how s/he should treat Japanese names. If firstname-lastname works for them, alright. It just doesn't work for me. It sounds odd, like Spaz has mentioned, but I don't want to sound like I wanted to impose rules.

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PostPosted: January 5th, 2008, 9:05 pm 
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Actually, I HAVE found a significant proportion of Americans to be patronising, and perhaps even a little arrogant, when it comes to dealing with people from other parts of the world.


Tell me something new >.>

Ok since I saw 42317 using this in another thread, I will now ask another question (puts on armor, drinks shield potion) ...

So 42317 why do you use accents when writing romanji, like Yūko instead of Yuuko. I think that, at least THIS time, there is a very solid reason to use the second (actually, two): First, if you want to type in a IME, you will need to use the second (Yuuko), and second, Hepburn Standardized Romanji does not use accents, so again it's Yuuko (I think Hepburn was selected for IME purposes which would make this 2 reasons ... one).

Any hints?

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PostPosted: January 6th, 2008, 1:12 pm 
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Caiobrz wrote:
Yūko instead of Yuuko

I think there is no academic reason. It's a convention that I have copied from academic books on Japan.
There is no definite rule.

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PostPosted: January 6th, 2008, 7:07 pm 
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The college classes I took on Japanese, the sensei always taught us to write romaji without using accents (at least not accents for long vowels). Also for words like "arigatoo," I was taught to write it that way instead of "arigatou."

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PostPosted: January 6th, 2008, 9:40 pm 
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Same here spaz, I did 1 year of Japanese and it was always without accent, though sensei rushed to hiragana/katakana telling us not to even bother much with romanji.

I think that's because of what I mentioned, it's easier for one to get used to IME on a computer if you are used to not using accents, though accents as I just read on some site are actually part of hepburn too, so both Yūko and Yuuko are considered standard modern romanji.

Eitherway, my question was answered ;)

As for arigatoo or arigatou, dictionaries usually accept "-u" or "-i" as alongations (sensei not sensee, arigatou not arigatoo), but IME will accept both, and in kana it's pointless since we use the "-" kana anyway.

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PostPosted: January 7th, 2008, 12:45 pm 
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spazmaster666 wrote:
words like "arigatoo", I was taught to write it that way instead of "arigatou."

Now that looks perverted to me. :D
In absence of accents I'd rather transcribe it as "arigatou", following Kana-composition.

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