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PostPosted: August 2nd, 2007, 6:44 pm 
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I never said I didn't believe that there isn't an after life. But that stuff they say about when you're about to die of life changes completely, they're right trust me, or better yet go nearly die and find out for yourself. WAIT! don't do that, bad idea just take my word for it. Why? you have to get way to close to death for it to work.

I still don't get why believing that life has no grand purpose=Atheism. I get the feeling we're taking about two different things. You're taking about an indivigual being having a purpose, these are self given. Life as a whole has no great goal or purpose other then to just keep going, that's all.

On a personal note, stop calling me Atheist! I do believe in God very deeply, my view is just rather complicated! I take a little from everything, including some things from Atheists, they are right about a few things. For instance, God get's blamed for way to much, 96% of the bad stuff that happens is either probablity or just human stupidity. Oh well, that's why I don't go to church.

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PostPosted: August 2nd, 2007, 10:34 pm 
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The Adict wrote:
I never said I didn't believe that there isn't an after life. But that stuff they say about when you're about to die of life changes completely, they're right trust me, or better yet go nearly die and find out for yourself. WAIT! don't do that, bad idea just take my word for it. Why? you have to get way to close to death for it to work.


I almost drowned a couple of times when I was a little kid. Didn't really feel . . . anything.

The Adict wrote:
I still don't get why believing that life has no grand purpose=Atheism.


Atheists basically only believe in the laws of science and the scientific method. And since science never studies the purpose of things, atheists, by defintion, do not believe that anything has purpose, since doing so would be to believe in something unscientific.

The Adict wrote:
I get the feeling we're taking about two different things. You're taking about an indivigual being having a ly purpose, these are self given. Life as a whole has no great goal or purpose other then to just keep going, that's all.


Ah but the "life" you're referring to is little more than an abstract concept, which obviously has no innate purpose other than what we attribute to it. I'm not talking about that when I refer to life.

The Adict wrote:
For instance, God get's blamed for way to much, 96% of the bad stuff that happens is either probablity or just human stupidity.


Well I'd say that most of the "bad stuff" that happens is due to sin and man's sinful nature. ;)

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PostPosted: August 3rd, 2007, 11:05 am 
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Hmmm, was that by accident or was somebody trying to kill you spaz? If you want to talk about it, to an extent.

In any case it looks like we lost everybody, again. Plus i think we've beaten this subject to death, literally and figutativly.

Question, any body notice me and Spaz end up on opposite sides of almost everything? Just something I've noticed.

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PostPosted: August 4th, 2007, 12:56 am 
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The Adict wrote:
Hmmm, was that by accident or was somebody trying to kill you spaz? If you want to talk about it, to an extent.


No, just stuff that happens when you're a kid. Ya know you're messing around in a creek, take a little misstep, next thing you know you're several feet under water. :lol:

The Adict wrote:
Question, any body notice me and Spaz end up on opposite sides of almost everything? Just something I've noticed.


That's what keeps it entertaining . . . :P

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PostPosted: August 4th, 2007, 11:52 am 
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True, though we disagree I think we get along just fine don't you Spaz?

So it was an accident. That can be chacked up to being a stupid kid. So you scarred of water too?

Now then I any body wants to bring up a qestion so we can keep the thread going that be great. I would but no body ever seems to want to talk about what I ask so somebody please bring up a subject!

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PostPosted: August 6th, 2007, 10:27 am 
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spazmaster666 wrote:
I don't think so. If you REALLY believed that everything is truly pointless, you wouldn't even be arguing with me.

Cool, just cool, that reply. The best thing one could say. :wink:

The Adict wrote:
You are born, eat, crap, sleep repeats until you an adult, then eat, crap, have sex, sleep repeat then after set amount of time you die. For a while what you've contributed lasts put slowly fades or your culture colapses

Everything comes to an end, yes, but if you let yourself stop by that you could just commit suicide after crawling out of the womb. I can't imagine anyone without a single moment that makes his/her life worth the time.

The Adict wrote:
go nearly die and find out for yourself. WAIT! don't do that, bad idea just take my word for it. Why? you have to get way to close to death for it to work.

But we all have to die anyway... just the persons to mourn our passing will be different.

spazmaster666 wrote:
I almost drowned a couple of times when I was a little kid.

A couple of times!?! That's tough for an experience.

The Adict wrote:
Question, any body notice me and Spaz end up on opposite sides of almost everything?

That's his purpose of existence! He does that with most of us. :D
On some rare occasions he agrees with people, when he doesn't find any space to see the comment in question from a different angle I guess. :lol:

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PostPosted: August 8th, 2007, 10:36 am 
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So what Spaz and 42317 is saying that because one pursues their own happiness and there are good parts of life that gives life meaning. I can understand that, again my inability to make my point stopping me from coming across very well. Soryy.

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PostPosted: August 9th, 2007, 7:53 am 
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Sweet - A philosophy thread. Have you already been around religion, ethics or determinism?

I'll have to join in at some point :wink:

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PostPosted: August 11th, 2007, 1:02 pm 
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Nope not yet feel free though. Just keep it civil.

Oh wait did do morals a little while back, stil we could have at it again.

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PostPosted: August 11th, 2007, 4:47 pm 
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The Adict wrote:
Just keep it civil.

... says the guy who's not OG. :wink:

Dhaerow, you better do as your NG sempai says! :lol:

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PostPosted: August 13th, 2007, 2:26 am 
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Dhaerow wrote:
Sweet - A philosophy thread. Have you already been around religion, ethics or determinism?


We've already cover ethics and morality (well at least the discussion of whether or nor morality is universal), and we kind of dabbled a little bit in religion here and there. The same for determinism. Though you bring up a good topic for discussion: does free will exist? And what does it mean to have "free will"?

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PostPosted: August 13th, 2007, 3:45 am 
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I define free will as one's ability to make decisions and choose a path in life that is not mandated by some higher authority, whether that authority be temporal or celestial/infernal in nature.

Do we possess free will? Yes, I believe we do, due mainly to my rather unusual spiritual beliefs. While I believe that nothing in life happens without some purpose, as a part of the Divine, we possess the ability to alter the course of future events (and thus, our purpose) at any time. It should be noted that most of the time, however, it is not our purpose that has changed; we simply didn't understand what our true purpose in life was before.

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PostPosted: August 13th, 2007, 9:03 am 
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*Ahem* - Pardon my English...

Randomness doesn't exist.

It wasn't by chance you rolled 5 and not 2. It only seems so to you, because you had no way of predicting the result. But he who knows everything could have.

Actually, you didn't even choose to roll the dice. It only seems so to you, because you had no way to predict, that no matter what, you would roll that die, at exactly the time that you did. It was all decided at the time of the big bang (or possibly before, I’m not that into astronomy). What led to the roll was an unbroken chain of events going all the way back to that.

There is no coincidence, only ignorance.

There are no actions, only reactions.

Every effect is a course.

The universe consists of particles bumping into each other, drifting away from each other and being kept in place (relative to other particles) by persistent forces.

Everything we know about the universe suggests that when two particles collide, their speed and directions determines the exact outcome. "Uncertainty" is a term applied to the accuracy of human knowledge about causes and effects, and not to the causes and effects themselves.

Most scientists believe that the universe was a very tiny ball of very densely packed particles that suddenly exploded - the big bang. When that happened, a whole lot of particles flew in all different directions. Since then they have been bumping into and drifting away from each other.

By bumping into each other they slowly lost speed and at some point they became slow enough to start clotting together. Stars, planets and other celestial bodies were created this way.

The first life in the universe was created when, at the right time, at the right location, the right particles collided. It would seem like an amazing coincidence. But of course, coincidences don't happen. The location, speed and direction of these particles, a second prior to the definitive collision, was a result of billions of years of bumping into all the other particles that made up the universe.

Had one of these particles not bumped into that one helium atom 11000 years ago, it would not have been at exactly this location, at exactly this time, and maybe the universe would have had to wait another million years before it would see life.

Now, why would we refer to this particular combination of particles, atoms and molecules, as "life"?

It's because it seems to be doing things on its own, independently from its environment. It's not simply held in place by a persistent force or drifting through space at a constant speed, until it hits something. It is doing something else - it's productive. It reproduces!

Opposed to the two hydrogen atoms colliding, it seems unpredictable. But of course that doesn't mean it isn't predictable to he who knows everything.

Inside the first lifeform, the particles that it consists of are moving, bumping into each other, reacting with each other. New particles collide with it and are absorbed, and others escape. Amazingly all this bumping around eventually results in a new copy. Amazing, but not random - the individual particles are still the same deterministic particles, flying around outside the life form. Just because they are a part of something living, they don’t suddenly go all random. They are still perfectly predictable to he who knows all.

It seems so unlikely that some particles could collide in the exact way that made this possible, but when you consider how many balls there are, and how long they have been bumping into each other, it's not that amazing really.

Now if life didn't come from somewhere else, like a meteorite, this happened on earth. Life came to exist, and it had, or came to have, the ability to evolve. And here we are, a whole lot of bumps later. Yes really, that's all that has happened since then, a whole lot of bumping. We consist of these perfectly deterministic particles. Or brains too. When the photon particles hit our eyes, it's just chain reactions of bumps that result in us seeing what we do. It's the same when our brain signals our muscles to move.

Knowing this, why would we think that everything, every "action" is not predetermined to happen?

Those planes were predetermined to hit WTC, really, there was nothing else the terrorists could have done, and we should actually feel sorry for them, because they had to die so meaninglessly. But of course everything in a deterministic world seems meaningless, and of course we still hate them, because we exist in this world and are thus predestined to do so (!).

It's predestined that most people believe in free will and it's predestined that they will think I’m an idiot for suggesting that moral responsibility doesn't exist. However, since I am not he who knows everything, I have no idea of predicting if I will convince them or not, so I might as well try.

Really, it must be kind of lame to be he who knows everything.

Of course we don't know what consciousness is yet. Maybe deep inside our brain there are some strange completely -random- particles (the soul??), but until I see any proof of that, it's determined that I will believe in determinism.

Oh, and it seems quantum effects are actually pretty random, whatever that means. And since they exist in this universe, I guess the universe is random too. So when I said “everything we know about the universe”, I guess I was lying. But right now I have no idea what a quantum effect is. Even if scientists tell me they are completely unpredictable, I find myself unable to imagine that the universe could be anything else than deterministic. Maybe when we understand quantum mechanics better we will discover that it actually isn’t random at all, and we just forgot to consider some factors?


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PostPosted: August 13th, 2007, 11:30 am 
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Scary, really. I don't want to believe there was no randomness. The idea that something or someone has preplanned my entire existence is so horrible I might turn suicidal as soon as I for some reason might accept it. I don't want to exist for the fun of some entity!
"Oh, it's so boring... let's have some of the creatures kill each other in a big scale war... which 50 million creatures do we choose... haha, man, will they be pissed!"

I do, on the other hand, not believe that there is true free will in general. But for other reasons.
Our state of mind is affected by our social environment. When we make choices we consider whether those are accepted in this environment, considerations that seem so natural we hardly notice them, like "I need food - shall I pay for it or just take it?" If there was true free will, we might ponder that decision, but since "to take" in this case is, for cultural reasons, understood as "to steal", which is generally considered a bad thing, we don't do it. Maybe because it's immoral or because we fear punishment, it doesn't matter.

People who exercise free will are either mad sociopaths or considered dangerous lunatics of some other kind whom we lock away. Society suppresses free will to a degree by setting rules of behavior, and it's the rules that allow society to work. Even anarchic societies have rules, they're just decentralized and not written down. If there are rules, there's no true free will, and as soon as two induividual people need to coordinate their actions, rules are inevitable.

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PostPosted: August 13th, 2007, 11:44 am 
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"Our state of mind is affected by our social environment. "

If you accept that there is no free will, then you must also accept that the social environment is predetermined, because "social environments" are created by people and the "choices" they are constantly making.

It's either no free will - everything has to be predetermined.

Or free will - things haven't been predetermined since conciousness came along.

Did that make sense?

I'm too tired to argue, just entered Japanese time zone (preparing for jetlag) :P


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